Hello all,

I have a 4 year old male staffy that was a rescue dog and has had loads of issues since ive had him,, he is very untrusting of people and i suppose you could call him a classic fear biter. He doesnt like humans much at all and has prooven time and time again that he will bite people if they try to touch him or even if they just go near him. He has never broken the skin ever i would like to add, in fact it could almost be described as mouthing what he does,, and it is normally feet he will go for. (possibly a sign he has been kicked badly in the past) So basically he is not or never has been what we would call a normal staffy ie people loving. The people he trusts however he loves truly and is gentle as a baby. Also he has never been good around other dogs and on the lead he shows agression and i have never really been able to trust him off lead with other dogs. 

Now I have always planned on having another dog one day as in a lot of ways i thought a female companion would help him and give him more confidence generally especcially if the new dog was "normal" she may lead the way for him and allow him to follow her and give him confidence,, also i hated the thought of him never being able to play with a dog ever. Plus i wanted a dog that would have no problems with my familly and friends,, ie yes of course you can pet that one (new dog) but please give him (Lucky) a wide berth as he is not very friendly,,sort of thing. 

So the situation arose where a puppy became available of 5 months old , female and the same colouring as Lucky. 

Honey was her name and we have had her about 6 weeks now. Inittially he didnt like her one bit and i kept them seperated with baby gates and her crate for a good week. The first 3 days of all three of us sleeping downstairs with her in her crate right nect to Luckies crate/bed really worked magic,, after the 3 days she was laying on her back in front of him and his gate and doing all the submissive behaviour,, he was putting his paw through the bars on her and showing no agression. So starting of slowly i have let them out together and they have been doing loads of wrestling and mouthing and all good fun playing really, building the time up till they can be out playing for a few hours. 

Over the 6 weeks i have seen her go from being completely submissive to slowly start to push him more and more with the biting,, i mean she is very bitey which is to be expected even with the humans we are teaching her all the no biting stuff.  She really really is full on with him and its rough and tumble all the time,, even when Lucky has clearly had enough. He will however, when she gets to hectic or bites too hard,, bite down on her just enough to make her squeal and jump back and stop,, this then calms her down for 10 mins or so and then she will start it again. 

I was advised by a multiple staff owner friend of mine that she would most probably eventually dominate hime and he would become submissive as is normally the way with a bitch and a dog, she also said that it could happen this early but i couldnt believe it as she is litterally half his size, also that all this play fighting is normal and i must allow it for them to naturally find there positions in my pack. Then last week maybe when he reprimands her by biting her she has been sort of freaking out and half trying to charge him and looking quite aggressive making all the noises and not retreating as much as she had been doing, and recently she has been able to make him yelp a couple of times by biting his feet or his willy a couple of times. This morning same thing happened but the play fighting turned an bit nasty and he has bit her on the muzzle 3 puncture wounds, lots of blood,, but after it all just superficial really i stopped the bleeding and it didnt seem to affect her. Lucky was sent to his bed and that is where he ha stayed while i ask for some advice. I should add they both have lots of tiny scabs around their muzzles from the play fighting /mouthing

I am not sure now whether i should just be more stricter and not allow so much of the play fighting as with 2 dogs now they can run around the house playing with each other like really crazy smashing into furniture and stuff, knocking things over and potentially hurting each other.  themselves.  Im a bit lost really as im worried that these fights will become worse and worse as she gets bigger and more able to hurt him back. I do believe its a dominance thing because she has recently started barking at him wich i have never heard her do before,,, she will bark at him when he has a bone or something until he drops it and walks off then she will go and get it,, he will let her do it and then when she is chewing it walk over and just take it back from her. She will also walk straight into his/ bed/space/crate and start eating his dinner while he is sitting there with no reply.

Part of me is poor little puppy (seeing the blood) but another part of me is like you have been asking for that for 2 months Honey, and its about time Lucky put her in her place. Believe me she gives as good as she gets with him and just keeps on coming back again and again and again. Someone else said that she can see already at her young age that Lucky ist the full ticket and is showing weak energy that is why she feels she can take over. All advice would be most welcome, what am i to expect and what is the best plan of action? Do i just have to allow them to get on with it? should i try and prevent all aggressive playing tussling? what do You think is happening?

many thanks, and sorry for the long winded post but i believe you needed to know the background. 

Rob

I'd be stepping in and stopping the playing when it starts to get a bit out of hand.  My two have never been allowed to go totally crazy because the last thing I need is it to turn into an all out fight - cos I'm pretty certain Neo the older one would come off worst.

The way I work it is whichever dog is getting out of hand is the one that gets put out of the room for time out, the one that's getting picked on stays.  I also make sure that Neo gets plenty of time for himself just to chill out.  It's essential that each dog has somewhere to go when he's had enough and when he goes there, he gets left in peace.

Thanks for the reply

I Have been giving them a time out when they get very loud a rough but i suppose my problem is is i dont know how to judge when the older dog has had enough has he will oblige her everytime she starts with him playing whch is whenever she is out with him,, even when she is tired. He never walks off away from her to his bed like i would expect him to if he has had enough. I think ive had a bit of dodgy advice from non stafford owners,  that i have to leave them together all the time when supervised for them to bond and to just handle the playing,the more they are seperated the longer it will take for them to bond., person had 2 poodles tho.

I agree he is being accommodating, and for that im really glad as i was really worried that Lucky would never accept any other dogs.

Cheers Rob 

Thanks for the reply Mally

Yeh ive had them both out for hour walks which is double shes supposed to be having daily for her age but i can tire her out for her bed or her crate or in front of the fire,,,Alone that is,, but If i let Lucky out off she goes,, biting ears paws muzzles, taking turns to jump onto each other from the settee puncing on each other like kittens would. 

Also she is still being trained and i can say no and Lucky will stop ,, and bed and off he will trot,, but it doesnt yet work on her, when it escelates into craziness like him chasing her round and she running round the house like a biker riding the wall of death lol banging off everything, she is the one that normally goes in her crate for an hour or so and she normally goes straight to sleep or chews her bone. 

A lot of the calmer playing consits of him wrestling her on to her back in one way or another and then him laying on her with her pinned and then they chew each others ears,, sometimes they can do this very quietly and this is very agreeable playing to me. But it will esculate because she wants to be on her back less and less,, and if she ever catches him laying next to me on the settee on his back , its like a red flag to a bull, shes up and trying to bite his bare underneath,and pin him, then hes up immediatley and they will start play fighting there and then on the settee , all over it and all over who ever is on the settee. 

I defo think some new rules are going to be in order for the 2 dogs now as some rules were ok for the one like getting up on the settee he would just jump up and chill,, now there is no chilling when they are together. In fact ive never seen them lay down and sleep together ever. Lucky is very aware where she is and what shes doing all the time she is out and he never seems to relax while she is about, i suppose because the only time she aint trying to mouth/bite him is when shes preoccupied with dinner or looking for food.

cheers

Rob

Thanks Alison 

Im feeling much better with your reply,, makes a lot of sense. Initially it was Lucky that i put away and as he wasnt really used to it he was ok about it but you new he was wanting to come out immediatly and was clearly bothered that she was still out walking around,, i did this because i felt he was the danger in the beginning and she needed protecting , even if she was the one causing the mahem,, which she always is. 

My problem is is that i honestly have never seen 2 staffs fighting for real,, or playing together,, so Im having big trouble getting a scale in my head of what is acceptable play and what is out of hand. I think i have seen 2 dissagreements between them which could maybe in hindsight be called a bit of a fight,of course not real fighting but i think their attitude had changed for that split second and if she would have been bigger and older they would have fought i reckon. As it was he bit her on the muzzle the first time and she just yelped and it was like she had had a shot of adrenellin , she was on a wooden floor sort of running on the spot as she was tring to sharge him,, going forward anyway or trying to,, that was stopped by me at that point by sending Lucky to his bed. Second time they were on a quilt in fromt of teh fire so they had a bit more purchase on their feet and he broke the skin like i said that time.

 That was yesterday and apart from their walks (free running i might add no play fighting at all, in fact looking at that he is clearly the boss leading the way no fear at all and she will gingerly follow his lead) I have allowed them out together for very small periods indeed, and so far,  no playing together at all. I was going to give it a few days for her 2 little scabs to heal up as i reckon they may start bleeding again.  

Is it the level of noise that i should be watching for as it esculates or the level of physicallity that they are doing. If Lucky keeps on putting her on her back ,, should i allow it? Do i start to try and prevent her doing the biting to him that i have been doing to her where humans are concerned? Its like ive now become a boxing referee and i have no idea of the laws of boxing and what they are allowed to do to each other. 

Also my Mum who is one of the lucky ones where Lucky is concerned(he loves her) has seen a few vids of them playing in this rough manner and is too scared to come round as she is worried she will cause lucky to Fight/bite the puppy because of her precence,, as she is a right softee and admits she has no command over Lucky shes old school and Lucky knows she gives him treats i dont think he respects her however he just wants what shes got in her bag lol. Point being is they way they are playing atm, is making some people stay away because they are worried the pup is going to be hurt badly,, ive been saying but its natural they are only playing,, that was until i had blood all over the front room yesterday,, now im thinking ive got to drop this down a notch or 7 .

cheers

Rob 

Thanks 

Rob

That sounds like what i have witnessed twice,, its just the little one doesnt really know how to do it yet, and i found a couple of scabs under luckies chin that were not there before,, i think she may have bit him a bit too hard and he bit back.  Been a bit funny today when they have been together its like they are behaving because of yesterday, i mean ive not given them much chance granted but its a bit like they are both not interested atm,, i doubt it will last.

thanks

Rob

Thanks for the reply,, i think at the moment the 2 dogs relationship is The exact point, Ive been to vets and trainers who have basically said that he is mad,, he is completely unpredictable and does not act like a staffy around other people, he will not trust humans he does not know one bit, and its his unpredictability that stumps people,, he can be friendly with someone for an hour and then turn around and bite them,believe me he is a case and i could write a book on all ive been through with him,, ive been told on more than one occasion that he is unsafe and really should be put down,, but i rescued him and i am loyal very loyal, he is my cross that i must bare and i can and never will trust him 100 percent around anyone but me. Imagine having a staff that no one can stroke,, its gutting believe me. A trainer described it to me as he is like a special needs child,, he was either born that way or the abuse he has suffered changed him for the worse. I am his world and i have known for a long time that if he didnt make it with me he would end up being put down. In fact he is probably a good candidate for being pts considering his unstability around humans. So im his forever home, thats it and that will never change,, he is not dominant aggressive tho,, hes a big coward who has none of the staffy courage, and thats why i was hoping and was advised that a strong minded dominant bitch with "normal " staffy tendencies would be very good for him and he would feel better following her lead, safer and securer if you like. I mean just as an example he has no tail, looks like a boxer from behind because it had to be amputated as he bloody chewed it off,, now that aint normal is it? yes my life with him aint normal at all, i have to be watching him all the time when people are about, now its become second nature, i almost know what hes thinking now where humans are concerned, and i know his triggers that set him off,, teenage boys are one of them and feet that even remotely look like they are kicking, anyway please i hope we stay on topic, where he is concerned i think i have him sussed and happy, not ideal but a dog is for life aint it. Im really after info on how 2 dogs interact with their play,, i mean if someone could say from point c to point f that is the type of playing that you need to step in and stop, as the next step is potentially a fight,,,maybe its just time that is needed for me to get to know how the younger dog ticks,, as i got Him (Lucky) when he was 12 months old, already been sent from pillar to post, next stop for him was doggy heaven, believe me.

Many thanks

Rob